Digging In With ONN

Reimagining Indigenous, Black and racialized leadership within the nonprofit sector

Episode Summary

In this episode, we discuss reimagining leadership from our current understandings within the nonprofit sector and its connections to Decent Work with Dr. Vidya Shah. Some of the questions we explore are: What are leadership competencies? What are some of the realities faced by Black, Indigenous and racialized leaders stewarding this work within their respective organizations? What role does white leadership play in navigating organizational efforts around racial justice? Bio: Dr. Vidya Shah is an educator, scholar and activist committed to equity and racial justice in the service of liberatory education. She is an Assistant Professor in the Faculty of Education at York University and her research explores anti-racist and decolonizing approaches to leadership in schools, communities, and school districts. She also explores educational barriers to the success and well-being of Black, Indigenous, and racialized students. Dr. Shah teaches in the Master of Leadership and Community Engagement, as well as undergraduate and graduate-level courses in education. She has worked in the Model Schools for Inner Cities Program in the Toronto District School Board (TDSB) and was an elementary classroom teacher in the TDSB. Dr. Shah is committed to bridging the gaps between communities, classrooms, school districts and the academy, to re/imagine emancipatory possibilities for schooling.

Episode Notes

In this episode, we discuss reimagining leadership from our current understandings within the nonprofit sector and its connections to Decent Work with Dr. Vidya Shah. Some of the questions we explore are: What are leadership competencies? What are some of the realities faced by Black, Indigenous and racialized leaders stewarding this work within their respective organizations? What role does white leadership play in navigating organizational efforts around racial justice? 

Bio: Dr. Vidya Shah is an educator, scholar and activist committed to equity and racial justice in the service of liberatory education. She is an Assistant Professor in the Faculty of Education at York University and her research explores anti-racist and decolonizing approaches to leadership in schools, communities, and school districts. She also explores educational barriers to the success and well-being of Black, Indigenous, and racialized students. Dr. Shah teaches in the Master of Leadership and Community Engagement, as well as undergraduate and graduate-level courses in education. She has worked in the Model Schools for Inner Cities Program in the Toronto District School Board (TDSB) and was an elementary classroom teacher in the TDSB. Dr. Shah is committed to bridging the gaps between communities, classrooms, school districts and the academy, to re/imagine emancipatory possibilities for schooling.  


Master of Leadership and Community Engagement (MLCE)  

Podcast Episodes - UnLeading  

Episode Transcription

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Kavita: Welcome to Digging in with ONN. We are your hosts Kavita and Yami. This is a podcast that discusses public policy and systems change with a focus on Decent Work. We use an intersectional lens that centres learning around Truth and Reconciliation, Racial Justice and equity practice.

Yami: We want to acknowledge that ONN and this office is located on the unceded territories of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinaabi, the Chippewa, the and Wendat First Nations. WE know that many of our listeners are calling in or tuning in from different areas of Ontario. And we want to encourage you to learn whose land you're on. Not only as a form of solidarity in terms of acknowledging the first people and land, but also so that you can connect, build relationships, practices of reciprocity, to do better and move towards the Calls to Action, the 94 Calls to Action around Truth and Reconciliation as well as either Calls to Action within your respective communities.

We are so incredibly excited today to have Dr. Vidya Shah joining us to be talking about BIPOC leadership within the nonprofit sector, and ways that we can lean into practices of embodiment to do better, to fail better. I'm super privileged to be working with Dr. Vidya Shah with the neighbourhood center and other nonprofits around BIPOC leadership competencies, which as any project shifts and changes as we go and learn more and do more in that developmental phase.

But we're really excited to get into some of what we know already around BIPOC leadership, some of the dimensions and how it intersects and interconnects with Decent Work and the practices of Decent Work that are central to this project. And so welcome. Welcome, welcome, Dr. Vidya Shah. If you don't mind taking a moment to introduce yourself to our listeners, your entry point into this work would love to hear it.

Vidya Shah: Thank you so much for the invitation to be here, Yami and Kavita, this is such a beautiful opportunity to be in conversation with both of you about a topic that is near and dear to my heart. I want to begin by just sharing that I identify as first and foremost, my mother's daughter, my father's daughter, who I bring with me histories from around the world. My father having been born in Zanzibar, East Africa, his parents were from Gujarat India, my mom was born in Trinidad and Tobago with her my great-great-grandparents having come from India to Trinidad and Tobago as indentured servants. And so working through histories of colonization on both sides and identifying as a settler here as second-generation on Turtle Island. My parents met here and I've had the absolute privilege of being able to live and learn and grow on land that is not my native land.

Really happy to be here in conversation with both of you. I Identify as South Asian or Brown, I'm a woman, I'm cisgender and straight and a professor and a faculty of education. With all of these intersecting pieces to my identity, it allows me to continue thinking about how I come into this space, what race and racism and racialization mean to me in my particular location. And also think about all of the continued work that I need to do to unsettle, practices that are taken for granted, assumptions, and harm that I may enact because of where I am located. So, thank you so much. Both of you for having me here.

Kavita: Thank you for such a meaningful and thoughtful introduction to yourself and how you're coming into this space.

Yami: Yeah, let's dive right into the questions. Thank you for that lovely introduction.

So as a researcher and a professor, at York University with a focus on- we know that you have an amazing podcast and leading which we will tag in the resource section, and also that you're doing work around BIPOC leadership within the nonprofit sector. Maybe let's actually start by defining leadership? How do we define it?

Vidya Shah: This was the hardest question for me to answer. I have to be honest. I was like, that's a good question.

Kavita: You thought He thought were going to start you off easy but...

Vidya Shah: *chuckles*

I think one of the things that makes this question so important and difficult to answer is that there isn't a clear definition of what leadership is. And each of us comes into this with such different understandings of what it means.

And in fact, there are so many people that hear the word or the term leadership and are running in the other direction because, from how they have understood, and been socialized into leadership, they want nothing to do with it. And yet to me, those are some of the greatest leaders that we have in our presence.

And so I think about what actually is leadership and you mentioned the UnLeading podcast and that's actually how we started because we couldn't answer this question. Instead, we asked ourselves the question, well, what, isn't it? What are ways that we've been thinking about it that have been so harmful that we can actually lay that down and make space to imagine something else?

So the main question of the UnLeading Project, a podcast series is, what might it mean to undo and unlearn practices and ideas that promote hierarchy, individualism compliance, power over silence, and a culture of fear? Because we knew that that's what we didn't want it to be. And yet, so many of us have experienced leadership in those ways.

I'd say as well part of the work of figuring out what leadership is troubling. The taken-for-granted assumptions that we have reinforced the status quo and also engaging in conceptions of leadership that actively disrupt that status quo. And so this means that we are centring the experiences and knowledge systems and leadership approaches of the global majority, right?

This includes indigenous people, Black and African Diasporic people, people of colour, racialized people and all of the intersecting and often marginal identities that come with that. I spoke about my mom at the beginning of the podcast and my aunt and my dad, and so much of my understanding of leadership is watching them, and nobody would ever theorize that as leadership, nobody would ever call that leadership. But I watched how my mother navigated the school system. I watched how my father navigated the workplace as a South Asian man and I watched how they have done this. And to me, these are such beautiful examples of what leadership means that nobody would ever call leadership. But to have to survive in a system in which the status quo is actively working against you is in my opinion, one of the greatest aspects of leadership. So I'm really interested in what it means to redefine leadership, to be responsive to socio-political realities.

I'm really interested in reclaiming ways of knowing around, being around leadership and imagining future possibilities around leadership. I distinguish between a leader and leadership. I think a leader is someone who is respected and trusted who influences and connects people, but who also decenters themselves in service to something greater who is willing to take the greatest risks, who is the most courageous and acts with the greatest integrity. But is also someone that's leading for future generations while honouring lessons of the past. Someone who's continuously unlearning and learning and developing their capacity to love. I think for me, that's such an essential part of leadership, that we develop our capacity to love.

And the last thing I'll say is that I think leadership itself is more than any one individual. It is more than any one time. It is intergenerational and it is collective and it's actually the spaces in between the ideas that we have, the structures that we hold people, the more than human it's, all of that. It's that network of relationships that to me constitutes leadership

Kavita: The longer we do this podcast series, the one takeaway for me in almost every episode, is that a longer list of things to unlearn, and how do we keep reimagining the problematic concepts that we are currently upholding in our own lives, but also as a larger collective. So as you say, we need to redefine leadership in a way that's not causing harm and perpetuating that harm. So Yami, I see you as a leader in the nonprofit sector and am very grateful for all of the different ways in which you helped me grow. And I would love to hear how you define or undefined leadership or leaders if you want to make that distinction.

Yami: Oh, thanks so much. Kavita for that question. So, um, I'm smiling profusely because, um, I'm thinking about a conversation that we were in, a dialogue that we were in last Thursday around the term leadership. And just following everything that you said, I've become more and more increasingly curious about how leadership exists on the axis of being a steward or a community weaver or a mentor that's lateral rather than hierarchical as you spoke to. Thinking about the different competencies and ONN has done work around leadership and we'll link the resource below. What was interesting in the work that we did is the different ways in which leadership can be defined. And, as Vidya said, undefined and how there is often a rejection, and Vidya, we can speak to this, of leadership because of its links to colonial legacies of white supremacy, that top-down approach that I am going to feed you information. And I love when you talk about your lineage and your family, and the way that leadership is guidance, it's care. It's love. And I think these are frameworks that we often don't feel really comfortable talking about within the nonprofit sector. Especially from a Decent Work lens. It's like, what does it mean to centre love as a leader? It means to listen deeply. It means to know that we don't have all of the answers.

And so similar to you. I think I know I'm not clear on what leadership is, but I know what it isn't. And I know that leadership and being able to centre BIPOC leadership means that we're also centring practices of embodiment that we're connecting with one another in solution building. That we see the humanity in one another rather than just focusing on policies and practices and some sort of end goal. Because we never truly know. That's what I would add to Vidya's already amazing breaking down of what leadership looks like and can look like. And I want to invite the listener listeners to think about the different possibilities of what leadership means to you and how you define it within the context of your work.

Kavita: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Yami. Vidya back to you, based on your experience and research, what do we know about BIPOC leadership in the nonprofit sector? And what are the trends that you've been noticing?

Vidya Shah: Yeah. Another great question. I think this applies to both nonprofits and beyond. The first trend is that there are simply very few BIPOC leaders. And when I say BIPOC, I want to be really clear that the B the, I, the POC, have such different lived experiences. I find it hard at times to group all those differences in one term, but I will say that there are few Black leaders, there are a few Indigenous leaders and there are a few racialized leaders or leaders of colour that are doing this work. For those that are doing the work, there are such tremendous invisible demands on their time, on their energy, whether it's informal mentorship that happens behind the scenes or in parking lots or on the phone, on the weekend, the burden to have to represent all fill in the blank group, which is a tremendous burden that we have carried. Navigating whiteness. And, when I say whiteness, I don't mean white people. I mean the logic and the structures, and the ideas and the ways of thinking that, that make the experiences and perspectives of white people normal and everyday, right? So that's what I mean by whiteness, which is different from white people. Having said that, as a South Asian person, I'm constantly navigating my alignment to whiteness and what that means and thinking about how to divest from that in many ways, all these invisible demands on us.

I would also say though there is this expectation, especially in a hierarchical system that the higher you go up in that system, there're greater expectations to align to whiteness. And I define that in relation to who is protected in that organization and who is punished in that organization and we know time and again, that for leaders that are pushing against the status quo, that are asking questions that are demanding change that are doing the work that we say we are committed to, they're often punished. And we know that for those that are simply making the organization look good for optics or for whatever purpose, they are often protected.

And that happens in all kinds of bodies. But the expectation to have to align to whiteness in a body that is also harmed by whiteness is an almost impossible place to be. There was an article that I'm writing with some colleagues and it's called The Impossibility of Leading While Black and Brown. It speaks to the ways in which there are different metrics for different groups of people, the ways in which there are different expectations, the ways in which we are expected to align, the fact that on the one hand, we're always navigating harm, that on the one hand, it's either harm that's going to be done to communities if we don't act or harm that's done to us if we do act.

Yami: Yeah.

Vidya Shah: So we're constantly having to navigate different levels and orientations of harm and what a horrible position to have to be in.

Kavita: Feels like a lose-lose, right. Instead of a win-win.

Vidya Shah: Exactly.

Kavita: upholding the white structures or- there's just no winning.

Vidya Shah: So in a system that is so steeped in whiteness, the only option for anti-racism is lose-lose, right? And, and this is, this is my challenge with, for example like EDI positions, where you bring somebody in, there's all this excitement that change is going to happen, you get to put this person on a poster and tweet about the fact that you have a little melanin in your group and everyone's all excited, and then we get to this place where the person starts asking questions or starts doing needs assessment and starts doing scans and notices that there are issues. And all of a sudden, as we start to raise some of these challenges, you see how quickly that person becomes demonized that they have to push and challenge that.

And then when there is an acceptance by the organization of the pushing and the questioning, the organization then owns it as though they've always known this. As though they've always been talking about this. So this sort of piece happens, or the person gets pushed out. Right. One of these things happens.

So, this is in many organizations where an anti-racist and anti-oppressive approach isn't central to everything. When it's siloed into a particular person or role or position, or even a small department, it is extremely difficult forB lack and Indigenous and racialized leaders that are committed to anti-racism and anti-oppression to do their work.

Yami: I'm sitting with that reality that you just shared of the desire to hire, whether it's an EDI position or an executive director or a manager into a position, and the infrastructure that is needed and the competencies. Forgive me, I know this is a very complex word in the sense that it elicits a lot of emotion, when we talk about competencies around leadership, it makes me think about the Decent Work conditions that are needed for leaders.

Again, you get to define what a leader is. We could be talking about executive directors to frontline workers and we're complexifying it. But the reality is that leaders in this work face tokenism. It makes me think of that image from Coco in Montreal where, you hire somebody, you hire that executive director, they try to make a change and then there's pushback. And like you said, they eventually leave.

Vidya Shah: Yeah.

Yami: In that vein, I'm curious a bit about what is needed. What is needed to make those transitions? Is it competencies? Because I know there's a deep conversation around BIPOC competencies to support BIPOC leaders and all of the intersectional social occasions. I'm going a little bit off-script here, but what is truly needed in terms of, for all intents and purposes, we'll say competencies or skills. Throw out other words that are necessary, that you feel aligned with you that can support a shift in culture. , I'm curious about that. I'm really, really curious and there are no definitive answers of course, but what do you think?

Vidya Shah: In part, we have to see justices as intersectional. There has to be this commitment that we are thinking about Racial Justice because that's often the form of identity that gets most ignored, and erased and made invisible. But we can't understand that without intersecting pieces.

Yami you were such a great teacher for me the other day, so I want to just acknowledge that. And thinking about the fact that we need to actually support leaders in developing racial literacy. This isn't something that you just get. You have to learn it. You have to reflect on it. You have to act, you have to try, you have to come back, you have to make mistakes. You have to learn from it. And so this racial literacy piece is around understanding ourselves as raced beings.

I often when I'm doing workshops with various folks on leadership, I'll ask them, when is the first time you knew that you had a race?. When is the first time that you knew you were raced in some way? And often for people, for Black leaders and for Indigenous leaders and for racialized leaders, it was a moment of pain. It was a moment of some sort of experience of exclusion. But it's also really interesting to ask white folks that because yes, white is an identity and we want to understand the fact that something came to be in your understanding of what it meant that you were raced often in relation to someone else.

But I think it's also as part of this racial literacy, important to think about how structural racism operates. It's important to actually learn that, it's important to learn the ways it operates institutionally and ideologically and interpersonally and in internalized ways. I often use that sort of a framing to think about how oppression operates. And also most importantly, and this is out of research I've done with some leaders in various school boards, is an understanding of how whiteness operates to maintain itself. Again, coming back to these issues of protection and punishments. So how does whiteness operate to maintain a norm to maintain a standard?

And if we can have greater literacy around that, and this is for all leaders, this can't be the burden of folks that are already being harmed by various forms of racism. This is what needs to happen. And then the practice of literally building in this awareness into our conversations, into experiences of maybe racial affinity, caucus spaces, maybe opportunities, as you were saying, Yami for healing and for deep cross-racial solidarity work, but also into our policies and structures. Because either way, if we only take the sort of individual healing approach, what we leave out are the structures and systems that give rise to that kind of healing in the first place. And then if we only take the approach of structures and policies, then we don't actually shift how we're coming to this work. It's not based in relation. It's not based on actually changing our critical consciousness around this work. And so, I think all three of those pieces are needed.

Kavita: And sp Yami, based on what Vidya is describing, how, or do you see any of this come to life in our sector? Are you seeing any of these spaces being created and this work being done, whether on an individual level or a structure of level?

Yami: Yeah, I think, and Vidya, we talked a bit about this two weeks ago or so when we connected about the podcast, that we're seeing more and more leaders connect with practices of embodiment and thinking through the personal. For some in the sector, that feels foreign in the sense of what does it mean to connect with our spirit? What does it mean to connect with our lineage? What does it mean to connect with our emotions? And Nvidia had shared the work of Prentis Hemphill, a somatics practitioner, to get aware of how our body responds to conflict. To get clear on how we can get comfortable with being uncomfortable and also complexifying that notion for BIPOC leaders who are in a consistent state of discomfort.

 I think that some of those, trends are really showing up in the sector when folks are coming to the table to look around and say, well, who's not here?. But also saying, does it need to always be executive directors that are around the strategy tables? Can we think about ways to integrate frontline workers around Racial Justice and equity, because they're the ones that are interacting with clients? They're the ones that are often interacting with community members and have a closer pulse. Also, Vidya, I'm curious about the often divorcing of the community to leaders. As though Black leaders are not also a part of community or racialized leaders or Indigenous leaders have not also used services or have not also engaged in ways. I'm curious about your thoughts on that.

Vidya Shah: I think that in so many ways, Yami, what you're speaking to makes me think about how leadership, when predefined through, as you were saying earlier, a settler-colonial and white supremacy logic, what that does to us? It suggests that we are separate from community. That there's no such thing. Historically that may have actually been the case where there were entire communities that are being served and the leaders are not part of those communities, but if we shift the understanding of who is a leader, then we recognize that one of the- it's often seen through such a deficit model that we're going to hire more Indigenous leaders, Black leaders, racialized leaders, because we just have to, for optics essentially. But that actually means that you have competencies there that have never been acknowledged, like border spanning.

You have folks that have a foot in community and a foot in an organization. Or a foot in an organization and a foot in the academy. And so you have people that are sort of spanning multiple locations and what a brilliant place to be, to be able to shift knowledges, to acknowledge the tremendous knowledge that is in communities that often goes completely ignored.

And also to your point about embodiment, so much of how we've been socialized into leadership is that it's just this rational, linear talking, walking heads. And then it's like from our neck down work, we're completely cut off. And that doesn't mean anything, about our leadership, but when we centre the body, and then we centre the spirit, it makes place and space for such different ways of thinking about leading in ways that challenge a single knowledge system, in ways that recognize that intergenerational trauma that lives in our bodies and all of our bodies.

I think of the work of Resmaa Menakem who talks about why body supremacy and practitioners, like you said, such as Prentis Hemphill, who allow us to be in a space when we engage the body. We recognized more and more that there's no such thing as the leader and the follower or the oppressed and the oppressor. It blurs all of those lines.

So we are simultaneously, as Prentiss, as harmed and harming. And that knowing in our body is a very different kind of experience than that knowing in our minds. It allows for a fundamental shift and transformation that can only happen when we've engaged our full selves. And we can be able to bring more of our full selves to the space. So to me, the ability and the commitment to healing is a leadership competency. And I know that word competency, as you were saying earlier, is such a tricky word.

Kavita: A bit loaded.

Vidya Shah: I think as well, when we challenge, what is a competency? We don't want all things being competencies. I don't want somebody who is only rational. I don't see that as a competency. But if we can shift the power that the word competency has had, I think that there are orientations, that there are capacities, and even all these words can also be very tricky, but there's something to be said about the ability and the commitment to healing as an ongoing life journey that is central to leaders that are able and willing to make space and really to be able to open their hearts more and more to ways in which it's been closed.

Yami: Deep connection actually, between leadership and healing and Decent Work, which is something that we haven't really dived into and other episodes, this notion that healing can actually be an access of social change-

Vidya Shah: I think that one of the things that healing does, and healing, maybe I should start by saying can have sort of negative connotations attached to it, but healing allows us to access the parts of ourselves that are free, that are loving, that are humane, that are loved, loved, and loving. That's what healing does. And I don't know how we create a world that is decent if we don't feel decent, if we don't understand what it feels in our body to experience the joy and the liberation and the freedom that we are working towards. How do we actually do that in a way that doesn't replicate the various systems of oppression that we're trying to work against? And I think that so much of how we need to be thinking about this and seeing this is that we want folks, and all folks, to practice and to experience what it means to be the kind of world that we are trying. To create to be freedom, to be love, to be humanity. We can't just talk about this. If it's not experienced in our body, that what we're "fighting" for is something else but it's not that.

I think so much of Decent Work needs to be centred on the ability to experience ourselves in that way to be held with that kind of love and compassion. To be in relation to each other, to honour that in each other, we have to practice that in our bodies so that we can actually have a fighting chance of making it a reality.

Yami: There are going to be a lot of leaders in the sector that are wanting to embed Decent Work practices, that are thinking about Decent Work, are champions and are also thinking about systems change. This conversation has really highlighted the fact that leadership is complex. There's no singular, there are competencies, and there are complexities in how we can view competencies and understand them. But one that we really need to lean into is healing and the practice of healing to be able to move the work forward around Decent Work practices.

To conclude, I wanted to ask, any last words to the sector? And your top three things that you would say for folks that are interested in engaging with how BIPOC leadership can enhance within their organizations or their white leaders thinking about systems change. What are three things that you want the sector to walk away with in terms of learning?

Vidya Shah: I'll start with where you left off with our last question about the healing. While healing is central and creating conditions for healing to happen is central to Decent Work, to Racial Justice, work to all the intersections of that, we heal so that we can act. That's another Prentis gem. We heal so that we can act and organize. This is not an individualized approach to healing. This is healing that happens in community. This is healing that happens as collectives And it's healing that happens so that we can change systems so that we fortify our inner space to be able to change systems.

The other thing I'd say is that it's really important for leaders of organizations to recognize the tremendous toll that is taken on Black leaders at every level of the organization. And I hate to even frame it as levels, but unfortunately, that's how so many organizations are run, but in every space Black leaders in communities, Indigenous leaders and racialized communities, there's so much harm that's being done, that we have to navigate on a daily basis and that needs to be believed that needs to be acknowledged. For all of the extra labour that comes with that, there needs to be some recognition and value both in terms of time or, or monetary value, that understands that we're actually doing more work. We're actually doing more work and hard work to be able to move these pieces forward.

And the last thing I would say is that there has to be a willingness to give up power, to recognize that as a white leader in an organization, you might not be the best person to lead the organization, and that's a hard thing to say, and that's a hard thing to hear, but I think it's really important for us to recognize that what this is actually about is shifting power dynamics. That means the willingness and the ability to give up power, to give up this idea, to give up fantasies of what Vanessa Andreotti speaks of, these fantasies of certainty or fantasies of comfort, or fantasies of closure. That we want to give up power and in doing so that means that we're going to be in spaces that are uncertain, that we might define as being in a crisis that we might define as being uncomfortable. And all of those spaces are actually extremely generative spaces that can be used to shift the way that we think and live and be in. and lead.

Kavita: There's some truth-telling there that I think is really powerful. And Yami before we wrap up, I just want to turn to you one more time. There are a lot of different tables that you, virtually or physically, sit on and a lot of different spaces that you occupy and I'm curious, what have you seen or experienced to be effective ways in which organizations can support BIPOC leaders and BIPOC leadership?

Yami: I definitely think just to echo Vidya's point around compensation for time and energy. In the glass cliffs report by Movement Building, which we'll link below, they talk about the disproportionate labour. So a white ED and a racialized ED are both getting paid 80K, but it's not the same amount of labour to do Racial Justice work. So what do our compensation models, and I'm talking to boards in this context, look like, I think when it comes to healing, echoing Vidya's point, what does it look like to create the spaces for your staff in policy and in practice at this moment?

So I'll leave it there and just thank you so much for joining us, for being in dialogue with us we really appreciate you taking the time. And it's such a joy to have spoken, and I know Kavita you probably enjoyed yourself as well. For folks who are interested in your work, maybe you could just share where they could find you. I know we're going to link the UnLeading Project podcast, but are there any other points of contact that they can connect with you at?

Vidya Shah: If you just Google Vidya Shah York university, you'll see my profile that comes up there and my email is there. I look forward to hearing from folks. And I want to just take a moment Yami and Kavita to say to both of you, a huge thank you for the invitation to be here today in conversation, and also for the tremendous work that I know that you're doing. And for the barriers that you are up against in your work that is seen and unseen for continuing to do such amazing work, a huge, huge, huge gratitude and admiration for both of you.

Yami: I'm going to cry.

Kavita: Thank you. We need to wrap this up before I start crying.

So thank you. Thank you so much, Dr. Shah for joining us. Thank you to our listeners for tuning into this episode. We're your hosts Kavita and Yami. We hope that you'll join us for future episodes as we keep digging into the issues that matter to the nonprofit sector. Make sure to share, rate and subscribe so you're the first to know when new episodes are live.